Comments on: Better for the Environment - Hummer or Prius? http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/ Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:59:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: Michael O'Brien http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-2268 Michael O'Brien Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:48:29 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-2268 I first heard about this Hummer/Prius story from a car dealer who was bashing the Prius, and so I endeavored to get to the bottom of this controversy. I have read the CNW report and following explanations, and conclude that the CNW report is fatally flawed. They claim a 100k mile life for the Prius based on the fact that the average Prius driver drives less than 7K miles per year. This is partly due to the assumption that the Prius tends to be a second car and not the main family vehicle. Also, they assume that future technologies will make the Prius totally obsolete within 15 years. Pretty faulty and speculative reasoning if you ask me, especially given the rising popularity of this car and the shifting demographics, which CNW does not acknowledge. And then a 300K mile life for the Hummer? Ha! It's clearly a manipulation of data to cause a stir and garner publicity for CNW. CNW has succeeded in positioning themselves as effective manipulators of data. What they prove is that statistics can be misleading in irresponsible hands. Besides, averages do not apply to the individual consumer since, as the saying goes, your mileage will vary. As for myself, I drive a basic Honda Civic, as I deemed it to be the most responsible car given such factors as price, mileage and reliability. I expect it to go 300K miles, which would place it at the top of the CNW list. However, CNW places the Civic way below the Accord! Ha! What a joke! I first heard about this Hummer/Prius story from a car dealer who was bashing the Prius, and so I endeavored to get to the bottom of this controversy. I have read the CNW report and following explanations, and conclude that the CNW report is fatally flawed. They claim a 100k mile life for the Prius based on the fact that the average Prius driver drives less than 7K miles per year. This is partly due to the assumption that the Prius tends to be a second car and not the main family vehicle. Also, they assume that future technologies will make the Prius totally obsolete within 15 years. Pretty faulty and speculative reasoning if you ask me, especially given the rising popularity of this car and the shifting demographics, which CNW does not acknowledge. And then a 300K mile life for the Hummer? Ha! It’s clearly a manipulation of data to cause a stir and garner publicity for CNW. CNW has succeeded in positioning themselves as effective manipulators of data. What they prove is that statistics can be misleading in irresponsible hands. Besides, averages do not apply to the individual consumer since, as the saying goes, your mileage will vary. As for myself, I drive a basic Honda Civic, as I deemed it to be the most responsible car given such factors as price, mileage and reliability. I expect it to go 300K miles, which would place it at the top of the CNW list. However, CNW places the Civic way below the Accord! Ha! What a joke!

]]> By: Steve http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-1958 Steve Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:52:16 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-1958 http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp#headaches And now the Sierra Club has weighed in on this debate, which they call an urban legend. I discussed this with Nathan (the author of this post) and he had this to say: "Unfortunately (and this REALLY bugs me), THEY'RE logic is hopelessly flawed and inadequate. At least, they conclude that the fuel efficient car may be better than a Prius. For starters, they don't even HAVE the data needed to make a full life-cycle analysis (not that it stops them). Next, they perform the full BTU calculations for the Hummer, but never for the Prius. Why? The wave away any concerns about the Prius with an off-handed comment about the Japanese not being willing to loose more than $20,000 on a car (hardly scientific given the calculations they go through in the proceeding paragraphs). It's this kind of thinking that kills any credibility they might generate and smacks of the same kind and amount of defensiveness that Toyota's response had and the original report had, for that matter." http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp#headaches

And now the Sierra Club has weighed in on this debate, which they call an urban legend. I discussed this with Nathan (the author of this post) and he had this to say:

“Unfortunately (and this REALLY bugs me), THEY’RE logic is hopelessly flawed and inadequate. At least, they conclude that the fuel efficient car may be better than a Prius. For starters, they don’t even HAVE the data needed to make a full life-cycle analysis (not that it stops them). Next, they perform the full BTU calculations for the Hummer, but never for the Prius. Why? The wave away any concerns about the Prius with an off-handed comment about the Japanese not being willing to loose more than $20,000 on a car (hardly scientific given the calculations they go through in the proceeding paragraphs). It’s this kind of thinking that kills any credibility they might generate and smacks of the same kind and amount of defensiveness that Toyota’s response had and the original report had, for that matter.”

]]> By: Eeegs http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-628 Eeegs Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:19:05 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-628 Hmm, should we eat cake or pie while others go without food? Ah, the luxuries of our economy. Pie please. Hmm, should we eat cake or pie while others go without food? Ah, the luxuries of our economy. Pie please.

]]> By: Stephen Shapiro http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-488 Stephen Shapiro Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:36:02 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-488 There is a great episode of South Park about this. One family gets a "Pious" hybrid. They drove hundreds of miles a day just to be seen in their "environmental friendly" car. In the end, calamitous and hilarious environmental disasters were on the horizon. There is a great episode of South Park about this. One family gets a “Pious” hybrid. They drove hundreds of miles a day just to be seen in their “environmental friendly” car. In the end, calamitous and hilarious environmental disasters were on the horizon.

]]> By: russell http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-449 russell Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:10:37 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-449 I had heard of this, and am glad to have glanced through it to find the problem. (http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Why%201001000%20Miles%20for%20Prius.pdf) He spreads the Hummer energy cost over similar vehicle platforms, contending that the Prius only has one platform, whereas the Hummer has many thus more energy use was required, plus he says Priuses are scrapped at 100K miles (inaccurate), but 300K for Hummers, and end-of-life scrap parts for each have more vehicle platforms on which to be reused for the Hummer. The analysis is just flat misleading, or worse, and he basically starts to acknowledge that in the paragraph below. But to base the analysis so heavily on cross-platform technology transference is pretty ridiculous: From the report: As for Hummer, much of the design, development and manufacturing energy costs are spread across more than just this single model. (One of the original and recent Prius disadvantages, quickly being turned around.) In addition, the platform, power train and other mechanical components are shared with a variety of other GM products and have a significantly longer post-disposal life in the replacement market. Higher volume of components speeds manufacturing and reduces energy per-unit costs. Add the simplicity of disposing of the Hummer and the entire per mile cost becomes lower even though the fuel economy is staggeringly worse than Prius. And as I pointed out in the past, the energy cost per mile is unequivocally going to decline for Prius over time as the technology continues to spread across other models and the disposal/scrap industry learns how to deal with its high-tech materials and components. I had heard of this, and am glad to have glanced through it to find the problem.

(http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Why%201001000%20Miles%20for%20Prius.pdf)

He spreads the Hummer energy cost over similar vehicle platforms, contending that the Prius only has one platform, whereas the Hummer has many thus more energy use was required, plus he says Priuses are scrapped at 100K miles (inaccurate), but 300K for Hummers, and end-of-life scrap parts for each have more vehicle platforms on which to be reused for the Hummer. The analysis is just flat misleading, or worse, and he basically starts to acknowledge that in the paragraph below. But to base the analysis so heavily on cross-platform technology transference is pretty ridiculous:

From the report:

As for Hummer, much of the design, development and manufacturing energy costs are spread across more than just this single model. (One of the original and recent Prius
disadvantages, quickly being turned around.)
In addition, the platform, power train and other mechanical components are shared with a
variety of other GM products and have a significantly longer post-disposal life in the
replacement market. Higher volume of components speeds manufacturing and reduces
energy per-unit costs. Add the simplicity of disposing of the Hummer and the entire per mile
cost becomes lower even though the fuel economy is staggeringly worse than Prius.
And as I pointed out in the past, the energy cost per mile is unequivocally going to
decline for Prius over time as the technology continues to spread across other models and
the disposal/scrap industry learns how to deal with its high-tech materials and components.

]]> By: Nathan http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-442 Nathan Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:18:33 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-442 Tony, Good on ya for purchasing the Prius. I don' mean to call it a bad car at all. At the very least, it ends an important signal to the car industry about people's shifting values and willingness to buy according to them. Ultimately, gas hybrids may not be the best solution but, for now, they have value. I applaud you. I just wish there was better data out there with which to make a clearer evaluation in comparing hybrids to non-hybrids in a similar class so that we could measure just how much better they might be. Right now, we're mostly al in the dark going on hunches, which just isn't a good way to lead change. Tony, Good on ya for purchasing the Prius. I don’ mean to call it a bad car at all. At the very least, it ends an important signal to the car industry about people’s shifting values and willingness to buy according to them. Ultimately, gas hybrids may not be the best solution but, for now, they have value. I applaud you. I just wish there was better data out there with which to make a clearer evaluation in comparing hybrids to non-hybrids in a similar class so that we could measure just how much better they might be. Right now, we’re mostly al in the dark going on hunches, which just isn’t a good way to lead change.

]]> By: Tony http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-432 Tony Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:40:48 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-432 Hey Nathan, fun article. I just purchased a Prius yesterday... but at least it doesn't run on corn based ethanol! Hope all is well. Hey Nathan, fun article. I just purchased a Prius yesterday… but at least it doesn’t run on corn based ethanol!

Hope all is well.

]]> By: Nathan http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-430 Nathan Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:25:52 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-430 Don't even get me started on the Segway. Oy! What a sad story. Don’t even get me started on the Segway. Oy! What a sad story.

]]> By: StevieD http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-429 StevieD Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:10:20 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-429 A hybrid Hummer would be the cherry on the cake! All of the battery toxicity and extra weight of the Prius, combined with the lunacy of the Hummer's footprint and arrogant disposition. More seriously, we should all get Segways, and empty the road...Actually, scratch that. We should get on our bicycles, and ride them more often. Do more errands. Get in better shape. Let our cars collect dust (or soot, if you live where I do). And lobby your representatives for more bike paths and greenways. A hybrid Hummer would be the cherry on the cake! All of the battery toxicity and extra weight of the Prius, combined with the lunacy of the Hummer’s footprint and arrogant disposition.

More seriously, we should all get Segways, and empty the road…Actually, scratch that. We should get on our bicycles, and ride them more often. Do more errands. Get in better shape. Let our cars collect dust (or soot, if you live where I do). And lobby your representatives for more bike paths and greenways.

]]> By: Amit Kanodia http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-428 Amit Kanodia Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:38:22 +0000 http://thesocialage.com/blog/2007/09/10/better-for-the-environment-hummer-or-prius/#comment-428 Susanne: This was fun and informative. amit Susanne: This was fun and informative. amit

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